BG breaks R10 at the top mark and spins to exonerate without Ting the penalty. Reinstatement of points for greg requested please.

Thanks.

System Info:gregthepirate was given a pen at t=155 (RE:Rule 16.1 - Changing course, room).    gregthepirate raised the P flag at=156.  Bustedgristle span at t=165.   


pen: protester
spin: protestee

It is my understanding that I must either spin OR T. Having spun, I was under no obligation to T.

Thank you

Why didn't you press t, out of interest? Clearly you altered course towards him, and were GW boat, 100% your penalty, which should have been 100% obvious at the time. Pressing t would a. be correct and sporting (transfers the penalty which was incorrectly assigned, as per the design of the system), b. save everyone time, and c. allow him to get his correct regatta placing at the time (also could have saved him from fleet 2 (although it wouldn't have this time)). 2 times now, experienced users not t'ing have sent me to fleet 2 where the pen was 100% obvious. Interested in the thinking (or lack of) that says 'my penalty but I don't have to t'.

Yes, this is very poor form. BG, you know this is yours. It was as obvious as it gets. Very poor form not to T here.

I'm inclined to mark this as Rule 2. It is yet another time that BG has not T'd black and white pens.

Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

Perhaps I am not reading the Sailing Instructions correctly?

My understanding of the SI's is:

If I commit a foul, I may EITHER
Spin ORPress T

There is nothing in the SI's that suggests when one may be more appropriate than another.
There is nothing in the SI's to suggest that a boat should both T and Spin (double jeopardy)

And Frodo, you can keep your personal animosity out of the conversation. If you review the situation, you will see that I sheeted out the main, clearly intending to avoid contact – hardly rule 2 material chap.

I wasn't being personal at all. Just interested in the general psyche.

Yes, the SI's allow a boat to spin without pressing t (Appendix 2). But, you are an experienced player, so 1. I am confident that you knew 100% that it was your penalty, 2. you are well aware of the transfer system, and 3. you are well aware of the hassle/fairness issues (as listed in my earlier post) that not t'ing can cause.

So from a game fluidity and fairness perspective, why didn't you press t here? (Personally, I always t if I am >50% sure I fouled, and counter protest if it is close to 50%.)

"There is nothing in the SI's that suggests when one may be more appropriate than another." Can I just say:

1. if you were to send a player to fleet 2 when he didn't commit a foul (got retained score for clear cut RE error) and you hadn't pressed t, would you consider that a breach of sportsmanship?

2. What is your interpretation of the SI phrase "Any form of Online
Gamesmanship is forbidden in Sailx."? Could sending a player to fleet 2 by not pressing t for a clear cut RE error be seen as unsporting? Could not pressing t for a clear cut RE error to 'wind up' an opponent be seen as gamesmanship?

3. Do you not think it is just right to transfer clear cut RE errors, as that is what the system is designed for? (Forget the SI's, this is a moral question.)

Bustedgristle wrote:
.Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

Perhaps I am not reading the Sailing Instructions correctly?

My understanding of the SI's is:

If I commit a foul, I may EITHER
Spin ORPress T

There is nothing in the SI's that suggests when one may be more appropriate than another.
There is nothing in the SI's to suggest that a boat should both T and Spin (double jeopardy)

BG,

Are you quoting the current (version 3.5) of the sailx SI's?

Appendix 2 of the sailx SI's instructs a boat to press T and then either; protest, spin, retire or do nothing.

Pressing T is the sporting thing to do when the other boat is obviously incorrectly penalised. Knowing you have broken a rule and spinning without T'ing is poor sportsmanship. BG you know this as an experienced sailx user. This is very much about sportsmanship and rule 2.

Aloha!

Okole wrote:
Appendix 2 of the sailx SI's instructs a boat to press T and then either; protest, spin, retire or do nothing.
I can:
a) Transfer their penalty to my boat (T) if they have one,
and/or follow Scenario 1 or;
b) Retire (Double-Escape)
c) Do nothingThe and/or means that he can follow 'Scenario 1', which is exoneration by an O/Q turn. What he did (and others) is thus legal, and if it is legal it probably cannot be unsporting.

My question was more a moral one. I can see this being abused more and more, as people spin without t'ing, hence sending opponents unfairly to fleet 2 (happened once to me, you know who you are).

One counter to this is auto-t'ing when O or Q are used, but this gets messy when more than one penalty/multiple boats are concerned.

bigNeil wrote:
.Okole wrote:
Appendix 2 of the sailx SI's instructs a boat to press T and then either; protest, spin, retire or do nothing.
I can:
a) Transfer their penalty to my boat (T) if they have one,
and/or follow Scenario 1 or;
b) Retire (Double-Escape)
c) Do nothingThe and/or means that he can follow 'Scenario 1', which is exoneration by an O/Q turn. What he did (and others) is thus legal, and if it is legal it probably cannot be unsporting.

My question was more a moral one. I can see this being abused more and more, as people spin without t'ing, hence sending opponents unfairly to fleet 2 (happened once to me, you know who you are).

One counter to this is auto-t'ing when O or Q are used, but this gets messy when more than one penalty/multiple boats are concerned.

BG did not T then spin. He just spun without any T'ing.

The SI's as written specifically say a boat can T first and then (AFTER T'ing) spin, retire, protest or do nothing.

The SI's as written say a boat can Transfer the penalty 1st and /or then follow scenario 1 or retire or do nothing.

The SI's as written tell a boat she can transfer 1st then choose to do any or none of these other things.

So I respectfully disagree with you BigNeil. This is about unsporting actions and BG's actions are not sanctioned by the SI's as written.

Aloha!

Sorry, 100% disagree. Nowhere does it specifically state an order of actions so your use of words 'first' and 'then' are not backed up by the wording of the SI's.

As written, a protested boat can:

1. Transfer AND/OR follow Scenario 1 (spin/retire/protest)

[which broken down means they can:
1.1 Transfer
OR
1.2 Transfer AND Scenario 1 (spin/retire/protest)
OR
1.3 Scenario 1 (spin/retire/protest)
]

OR

2. Retire

OR

3. Do nothing

So, 5 choices, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2. and 3. Bg did 1.3. If there is any other intent by the author, then this is not communicated well.


If you want:

Transfer THEN Scenario 1 (spin/retire/protest)
OR
Double-Esc Retire
OR
Do nothing

..then you have to alter the wording. This would outlaw what bg did, but would require you to tell everyone as it changes the game quite significantly.


And/or is a phrase used to indicate that one or more of the stated cases may occur. For example, the sentence "He will eat cake, pie, and/or brownies" indicates that although the person may eat any of the three listed desserts, the choices are not exclusive; the person may eat one, two, or all three of the choices - Wikipedia

Preliminary period ends, no aggreement. Protest enters the Protest Room standard procedure.

bigNeil wrote:
.Sorry, 100% disagree. Nowhere does it specifically state an order of actions so your use of words 'first' and 'then' are not backed up by the wording of the SI's.

As written, a protested boat can:

1. Transfer AND/OR follow Scenario 1 (spin/retire/protest)

[which broken down means they can:
1.1 Transfer
OR
1.2 Transfer AND Scenario 1 (spin/retire/protest)
OR
1.3 Scenario 1 (spin/retire/protest)
]

OR

2. Retire

OR

3. Do nothing

So, 5 choices, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2. and 3. Bg did 1.3. If there is any other intent by the author, then this is not communicated well.


If you want:

Transfer THEN Scenario 1 (spin/retire/protest)
OR
Double-Esc Retire
OR
Do nothing

..then you have to alter the wording. This would outlaw what bg did, but would require you to tell everyone as it changes the game quite significantly.


And/or is a phrase used to indicate that one or more of the stated cases may occur. For example, the sentence "He will eat cake, pie, and/or brownies" indicates that although the person may eat any of the three listed desserts, the choices are not exclusive; the person may eat one, two, or all three of the choices - Wikipedia

I see your point BN.

But IMHO it still is a case of unsporting behaviour. Knowingly not T'ing a clear and obviously incorrectly given penalty and spinning anyway. Forcing the protester to have to file and giving us Mods yet another pointless protest to deal with.

There is a sailx penalty for wasting Mods time. I have a good mind to give it to Busted here.

Good morning.
Well, It appears that I have stirred up a bit of a hornets nest here. That was not my intention. ( I filed no protest – remember?)

Let's get to the easy stuff first –
As to sportsmanship/morals/ ethics – If you dear reader, have spent time with me on these virtual waters, I let my record speak for itself. I am however, not perfect nor, immune from KB error, lag, poor judgment from lack of sleep, occasional orneriness and sometimes I just hit the wrong fooking button.

I sincerely appreciate the commitment that each of you mods make in devoting your time and sharing your knowledge of the RRS for the benefit of the sailing community. Hurray to you individually and collectively.

I find it ridiculous to consider that I would choose a course of action simply to increase your work load. I am not so intentioned.

I am ignorant as to the numeric value gained or lost by being sent to fleet 1 or 2. I have never investigated the scoring ramifications of penning, t'ing, spinning, filing and not showing, within sailx – it has never been important to me. I am truly only aware that the first boat gets the most points and each subsequent boat gets fewer points. There was no malice or attempt to manipulate directed at you or at any competitor.

I appreciate that succinct, unambiguous writing is extraordinarily difficult to accomplish. In our sport, this is clearly evidenced by the casebook and appeals. I have heart-felt sympathy for the authors of the sailx SI's who need to make the instructions brief, clear, and technically correct in this multi-lingual environment.

My interpretation of the TACTICAT/SAILX SI's has always been that, If I fouled someone, I could EITHER
T or Spin.

I have always considered that this was poorly worded, and left open to interpretation instanced exactly like this protest case.

I have never been asked to "tighten up" the verbiage of the SI's and as simply another competitor on the field, have anticipated that some day, the wording within sailx would be made to more accurately simulate real world practice.

I hereby formally declare to all who would challenge my integrity that I, Jeffrey Bruton, of San Francisco California, having been a racing sailor for nigh on 30 years, Having previously completed a CRO class, having previously been the RC Chair at a small, non-descript Yacht Club, under penalty of perjury, witnessed by the Corinthian Spirit, formally memorialize the following:

I believed that I fully complied with the instruction. The Sis said spin or T. I spun.

I hope my position is clear and helps to rehabilitate my character in your collective eyes. If you would like my assistance in refining the Instructions, please feel free to ask.

Fair Winds,

Busted

Does anyone has asked the question why greg broke off his auto luff after hoisting the gennaker (actually breaking R16 by giving BG not the opportunity to keep clear) ? Greg then even alters course, while BG is trying to keep clear.

I am (would) not be so sure this is 100% BGs penalty.

D.


PS..pls, Frodo, keep R2 in the closet for a while....

Hi Guys,

I guess I am allowed to comment here!

This is EXACTlY the point I am making in other threads on the subject.

I do question why BG did not press T. There are a few players (they know who they are) who 'always spin, but never T'. I don't like this one bit. The analogy of this is - maybe the insurance premiums are too low! Maybe we should enforce the right to penalise a boat for 'wasting our time', in order to encourage more T'ing.

However, we must accept that he is entitled not to T. Our own SIs say that.

I do not generally like the concept that a boat can spin and not T when a penalty is clearly theirs, as it arises in this situation - I don't think there is much we can do to solve that though.

-----------------------------

The general intent of the SIs is to place the burden on the boat which was penned (Greg) by the RE. This is because all things being equal, we trust mostly the RE.

However, it is NOT the intent to entitle a boat to avoid using the 'Transfer' function (even if they believe a penalty is theirs), thus requiring a protest to be made in order for the penned boat to gain a score correction.

(But this is no different to real life. Any boat can initiate the protest procedure, whether they really know they fouled or not.)

However, we cannot avoid this unfortunate consequence.

In that case:

I would say that on a case by case basis, such an action cannot be considered a breach of sportsmanship. A repeated similar ploy however, could lead us to question an individual player's a) technical understanding, or b ) moral appreciation for the system we have devised.

For BG's interest, the basic concept we encourage is:

If I think it is mine...I 'T'. If I don't think it is mine, I don't!

Maybe that is clear now?!
-------------------------------

Notwithstanding the 'general concept above'....

The 'AND/OR' statement in Scenario 2 of the SIs does allow equally, "Do Nothing" as a valid reaction for a boat who has been protested.

It also allows a boat to who has been protested to follow the Scenario 1 responses WITHOUT any transfer of penatly first.

So, 5 choices, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2. and 3. Bg did 1.3. If there is any other intent by the author, then this is not communicated well.

That is exactly the intent of the author. It is the only way to satisfy the concept that 'a boat who spins does not necessarily accept fault'.

If we need to reconsider this, then let's discuss, however, as it stands, BGs actions (although not meeting our moral intent), do comply with the options listed in Appendix 2 of our SIs.

DW

Decision

GTP was incorrectly penalised by the RE for Rule 16.1

Although he did change course while he was RoW, he cannot anticipate that BG would change tacks and break Rule 10. Rule 15 does not apply since GTP acquired RoW due to BGs change of tack.

Rule 14 states that: A RoW boat need not take avoiding action until it is clear the other boat is not doing so.

The time between becomming RoW and it being clear that a collision was likely was too short for GTP to react.

BG broke Rule 10, but exonerated per Rule 44.2 Score correction only.

Additionally, the moral intent of our SIs is made clear to all parties involved here. This can be considered in future similar cases involving these parties.

DW