From 86 to 103 chorrisplot is sailing above his proper course after coming from clear astern

He is protested and does not spin til much later (between marks 3 and 4) and even then is for a seperate infraction

Thanks
~DoA~

2 incidents here IMO:

1/ Overlap from astern at 85.8, chorris is above PC to mark 2, goes down to PC by 88.0. 2.2 seconds. Overlap was created partly due to DoA sheeting out (i.e. maybe was not anticipated), TRCB F3 states chorris doesn't have to anticipate, but has to respond promptly. Close.

2/ chorris rounds the mark and bears away to what I consider a PC, as it is faster for chorris to sail high and out of Madness's windshadow than to sail low and get covered (and j'd). I remember a protest similar to this with big boats, committee agreed that sailing high and out of windshadows was legitimate PC - will find it. So, this incident, I would penalise DoA for 11.

Edit: Link to protest, MM vs tink (admittedly I was the one arguing this point, but it was agreed by closing mod).

And DoA, you say 'you should be a sport and start spinning' where by my reckoning you break R20 at t=20 (failing to respond, although the SI's exonerate this I think because neither tacked), maybe this R11 at t=102, and I also think you broke 16.1 at t=137 (pretty much TRCB H2). Pot kettle...

1/ Close, yes, but this was a valid warning which led to...

2/ In the absence of all other boats, chorrisplot would not have sailed this course to mark 3, therefore it is not his "proper course" and therefore he breaks Rule 17

(3/) BTG's hail for "RTT" comes after the obstruction in Madness begins to tack away and therefore is no longer an obstruction -- therefore this is not a valid hail, which I promptly protested for further up the beat after finding BTG's name in the list... should I go ahead and file that seperately or include it within here?

DoA wrote:
2/ In the absence of all other boats, chorrisplot would not have sailed this course to mark 3, therefore it is not his "proper course" and therefore he breaks Rule 17Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in
the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat
has no proper course before her starting signal.
With respect to R17 and you and chorris, his PC is the course he would take if you were absent and Madness was present (or at least that is my understanding).

I agree with BN, I was sailing my PC. R17 spicifically says that "if a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course"

and according to the definition of PC: "...in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule ..."

Hence the boat referred to in the rule is DoA, and I am sailing my PC taking into account only Madness' course and chiefly Madness' wind shadow, avoiding to be below his shadow.

Before that I am also sailing my PC to the mark, and then, while at the mark, taking the mark-room that R18 allowed me.

About the reaction time, I have to say that I tried to sail high, before the overlap, not to let DoA go down so hard and, at the last moment, bearing away (sailing my PC) to create an overlap before reaching the zone. This maneuver allowed me to start from a higher possition in order to avoid DoA's wind shadow as much as it could be, probably also cause I did not expected that it would be an inside overlap and I was trying not to be inside the mark-zone and then being trapped by DoA.

However I did not expected overlap would be created sooner, cause I did not expected DoA´s maneuver of easing his sails and advancing the overlap, so it took me a bit more time to realize about the new situation, hence anticipating the unexpected overlap.

Here is how I see it. Two Different incidents

First Incident
-DoA luffs at 83.6 and Chorrisplot becomes ROW boat under R11 at 84.7 but is subject to R17 and Is sailing above her course to the next mark
- The Overlap is not entirely clear especially while the boats are moving fast and Chorrisplot luffs slightly (possibly to sail astern of DoA or to slow down to get to madness) at almost exactly the same time as DoA hails proper course
- The overlap is apparent and chorrisplot sails directly down to her proper course
- Incident over

This one is slightly iffy, however I would err on the side of no penalty. Although there is a moment in time at which chorris is sailing above her course to the next mark while subject to R17, she fairly promptly sails directly down to her course to the next mark. At the same time, we have to remember that proper course only obligates chorrisplot to sail her fastest course in absence of DoA. It could easily be argued that chorris was sailing high to defend on madness and not get caught in her wind shadow. Proper course is fairly subjective and is up the the leeward boat to determine

Second Incident
- Chorrisplot has obtained an overlap from clear astern and is subject to R17
- Chorrisplot is arguably sailing above her proper course, but again has a boat to defend high on and not sail into the windshadow of
- DoA bears down on chorrisplot and breaks R11

In this case I would either penalize DoA for R11 or Penalize both. Remember that regardless of whether or not chorrisplot is sailing above her proper course, she is still the ROW boat and DoA must keep clear. I wish there were more calls in the callbook that dealt with the subjectivity of Proper course relative to other boats.

My ruling would be to Penalize DoA for a breach of R11 as it is not entirely clear that Chorrisplot breaks R17 here

http://www.sailx.com/forum/9-teams/93566...cing-protests-#93566


When filing team racing protests, will you please use the following format:


Protester vs. Protestee, Rule, Description(if you wish)


Frodo vs. Okole, Rule 17, Okole sails above PC.




The reason for this is because it is very annoying to navigate our way through the protest room and forum, especially now as the TR'ing event is on and there are floods of TR'ing protests in. It is annoying to navigate through because there are now a load of protests that are called exactly the same thing, ie r13 or R15 or whatever. There is no info in these titles and makes life much more awkward than it should.



PLEASE use the format I have above.




Fro.

Facts Found
Before the mark Chorris became overlapped with DoA from clear astern within two boat lengths.
After the mark Chorris steered a course to keep clear of madness wind shadow.
DoA protested.
DoA then did not keep clear of Chorris.

Applicable rules.
R11, R17.

Discussion.
Chorris' proper course is the course she would steer in the absence of DoA, maintaining a higher course to keep clear of Madness' wind shadow meets the requirement of proper course

Decision.
Chorris did not break R17.
DoA broke R11 by not keeping clear of Chorris.